César: Hello everyone, this is another episode of Colivers Club, powered by Mapmelon. Here today I’m with Moritz. Hello Moritz.

Mortiz: Hello, I’m Moritz. I’m from Germany, Berlin, and I love coliving.

César: Yeah, I think that’s it. That’s why you’re in this podcast episode. Absolutely, yeah. If you didn’t love colivings. Yeah, a hard place to be. Yeah, and actually there’s one coliving that you might love above all.

Mortiz: That’s true, where I’ve spent a lot of time, Nine Coliving, right? My one love. Which I’m not here today, no, so I’m venturing out, you know, getting new ideas.

César: Yeah, I’m scared we are today at Borghast coliving, which is another fantastic coliving you should definitely come check it out.

Mortiz: Absolutely, so much fun here. I think it’s a bit of a different vibe, but I think everyone should have experienced Borghast coliving in their coliving portfolio. Of course, a portfolio. I love it, like CV, right? Yes, yes. It’s next to the Black Sea, and Katia is just an amazing host, and yeah, it’s very lovely here.

César: Yeah, you’ve been multiple times. What keeps you drawing back to nine coliving?

Mortiz: Yeah. The internet event. So nine coliving, I think, was primarily I went there because my very, very good friend Johannes was there. Ah, Johannes, I love it. With his then wife, Sarah, because Johannes and me, we went to school together.

César: Oh, okay.

Mortiz: And yeah, he convinced me to stop by, and it was just an amazing idea to come, and it was just getting so many friends, becoming very residential in your mindset, and discovering the island. And yeah, I mean, I think the island was the craziest surprise because the Canary Islands also had such a reputation, at least back then. You know, now with over-tourism, it’s changed a bit, but back then, it was more like, “Well, there’s only old people going there,” or whatever. And for me, it was like an epiphany that they have this big mountain, the Altaeda, and it’s just so beautiful, especially in the north. There’s so much variety, but you still have, I mean, these great landscapes and also great people, and you have the sea, you always have a view on the sea, which is just amazing. I mean, it just gives me peace of mind to see that, and I think that’s why I’m coming back, but also because of the friends. Of course. I’d say you feel right at home. Yeah, no, it’s amazing. And also, of course, 9, Ana’s baby is excellent. Every year, it moves on, it becomes better and better and better. Yeah.

César: Yeah, is there going to be a limit?

Mortiz: That’s the question. I’m wondering, Ana, is there a limit? No, it’s an amazing house. Also, Lao-ro-tava is such a quaint, beautiful little town, and you have, I mean, the most amazing sunsets over there, you can always meet on the rooftop, and it’s just, yeah, I love it. And I think also, you can really see the island that there’s been now so many more co-livings, and I feel like there’s a lot because of Ana, how she did things that she really had such an influence, which is beautiful to see.

César: Yeah, I think in this sector, there’s a lot of collaboration over competition, and it only makes us grow. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, non-co-livings does very well, right? And there’s a lot of bookings, and the people that cannot go there, maybe they need another place nearby. So there’s like five co-livings now more, or even around. Absolutely.

Mortiz: I mean, I think for me, it was just very beautiful to go there, because you had an immediate circle of at least acquaintances, or even friends. And especially because back then, I used to live by myself in my Berlin flat, and it was just such an epiphany to come in a community and to have an immediate solution to that thing, right? I mean, you need to have a full social calendar, and there you just had it instantaneously. And it was just, I thought this is the antidote to the rest on illness of maybe sometimes feeling lonely, even as a young person, right? It’s just Western society in big cities. It’s just sometimes very busy, and you really have to keep your social calendar full. Otherwise, you can only focus on work. And I love that. I mean, that’s why I think co-living is just the future. I think we need more of that.

César: Cannot wait us to be old and be in our 80s, 90s, and go into these co-livings. Maybe we have to adjust the activities. So it will be like, I don’t know, bingo night.

Mortiz: I mean, I guess also I have a feeling there’s now really different little varieties sprawling up of what is a co-living, or like, you know, because we have also our co-lover, Ellie Green here, who told us a bit about like these different forms of co-living, co-working. And I think it’s just there’s so many different little ideas that maybe are themselves their own categories. And I think this is how it should be. You know, it should flourish, and there should be more options to more different situations where people just can live together and stay together and just be together, because I think that’s really important to feel good.

César: Absolutely. And you mentioned work briefly, and your case is very interesting because you work for the public sector, for the German government. I don’t think I’ve met any public sector employees in co-living. Want to tell us more about that?

Mortiz: Sure. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, we had a remote policy because of the pandemic. And well, I mean, that gave us a lot of room, I guess, and then also just, you know, to work. And well, I mean, I love that because I love my job. I love to, you know, work for the German state and to contribute, but I was happy to at the time, you know, to be allowed to do that. And to at the same time, you know, be in a really nice, vibrant environment that wouldn’t have been otherwise possible during the pandemic and lockdown at home. But it’s true. I mean, usually, I think there’s just a lot of physical presence. You have to be present many times. So it’s not something that is very easy to do. You know, you have to check in your calendar if it’s a possibility to go somewhere and live in a community. But sometimes it works out and then it’s amazing, you know, and then I love that. But yeah, maybe we’ll see because the public sector is also developing and opening up because, of course, the public sector cannot attract people based on just salaries. They also have to just offer other benefits. And maybe that’s a benefit that will stay. Yes, I think it’s a huge benefit. To be able to remote work and maybe attract more.

César: And even like promote it in some ways. Imagine if you were in a co-living with a public servant from all around Europe.

Mortiz: I mean, that could be like an instant networking event. Absolutely. I think, you know, the public will just move slowly, but hopefully we get in the right direction.

César: So you think what things need to be done in order for the public sector to catch up in these areas?

Mortiz: Do you mean now that people actually can go to co-livings or in the sense that co-livings can be more fostered or subsidized?

César: Yes. Yeah, I mean, I’m wondering if there needs to be some technological advancements. So I don’t know in the German government, but the Spanish government’s technical aspect of it is quite complicated, let’s say. So I don’t know. Having seen from the inside, is there something that needs to happen in order for these things to be more common?

Mortiz: Yeah, yeah. I think it’s just culturally, I would say it depends like what kind of role you have. And some roles you can be a bit more set apart where you do more analysis work, where you don’t have to engage with people in a physical manner from day to day. And that helps, I would say. So just making use of current technology with video calls, I think, already can do quite a lot. But I’m not sure, like I was looking into the headset of Apple, right? They have a picture of Apple. And apparently, there is some kind of a camera that kind of recognizes your face. So basically, I think you can have a virtual portrait of your face. So maybe you can then enter in a virtual room where people have more of a feeling that they are present. And if this is a direction of technology that maybe takes hold and people then have even more of a feeling, why should I go somewhere and travel and spend money on travel, spend money on accommodation? Let’s just, you know, I can do everything for my laptop. And we can be even more networked and connected through this. Then this may be also something that can facilitate this.

César: Okay. And you’ve, because your role now, what is your role exactly? Or are you a spy? A spy you shouldn’t say. That’s true.

Mortiz: Okay. That’s why I know my role is, well, I mean, I help organizations grow and become more productive, become more efficient. So I’m, you know, I’m part of the in-house consultancy and always help, you know, engage with other agencies or ministries and help them tackle a problem and becoming more efficient. And that’s a bit like an in-house consultancy. So a spy. A spy, absolutely. I cannot talk about this, but absolutely.

César: And we’ve talked a little bit about your background because, yeah, this going into the public service is something quite recent. You have a different background. Can you tell us more about your story?

Mortiz: Absolutely. So, I mean, I’ve been there now for four and a half years. So it’s already established. I mean, I still feel fresh and I really love what I’m doing. So it’s a breeze for me, but I’ve been before six years in the management consultancy. So because I first studied actually industrial engineering and business and then the management consultancy, because that was like, it’s just what you do. It’s what you learn at business school. And it was not very satisfying, especially then at some point you work quite a lot. You were given on weekends and then you wonder why you’re doing this. And I couldn’t give myself an answer. Why I should be doing this and why I should be wasting my time doing this. And then I just took a sabbatical. I was like, I can’t go on like this. This is, I feel I didn’t feel satisfied at all. And then I was like, OK, I think I need to devote myself to the public good. And then I thought the best way to do this is maybe to study again. And then fortunately I found in Berlin, there’s a great public policy school called the Herrte School. This is where I went. And then I did the one year’s master. That was amazing where I could, you know, it was just I love studying. It’s just, you know, you can soak up so much new information and knowledge. And I loved it because I was so much more mature. You know, when you’re in your 20s, you just do it because all your friends do it and you want to party. And you want to be away from home. But doing it in the beginning of your 30s was really an epiphany. And I could really see I’m interested in this. I want to read it. I want to understand it. And that’s amazing. And now, for example, next lecture or next book. And then after, yeah, after a while through some networking contacts, I found my current employer and I’m very happy how everything went, even though it was all very uncertain at the time.

César: There’s a correlation with people, for example, that I see in colleagues that are looking for a change in careers. And some people are quite lost and don’t know what to do and say, what would you tell them, for example?

Mortiz: That’s a good, that’s a fair question. I think I would guess it would be very individual. I don’t think that is one way to do it. So I only know it from myself, so I can only tell about myself. But I would assume everyone’s different and everyone probably has their own journey. Generally, I would guess to be courageous enough to follow it and to maybe sometimes make decisions that are risky or at least seem risky. I don’t think, you know, I’m from Germany, you’re from Spain, we are from Western countries, how much can go wrong? I don’t think that much. You know, we’re still in a really safe zone.

César: Yeah, we’re privileged.

Mortiz: A very privileged zone. So I think that gives us already quite an advantage, which we should be happy and grateful about. And we can take some risks. That’s a fair thing. And I would say, you know, just follow up on what you’re actually interested in. And maybe sometimes take courageous choices. And I would say generally to have a mission for yourself that can be a bit abstract. You know, like in a sense, I want to devote myself to this, because then you have a bit of freedom to choose what could be actually fitting and where also someone would you offer a job. Because to be fair, that’s not just what you want. Also, other people need to want you for a job or you need to be kind of successful at it. So there’s many variables coming together. But generally having a sense of direction helps structure your own…

César: Motivation, in your case, was wanting to do something for the greater good. Yes. And that’s one of the best motivators. I think once your basic needs are covered, like safety wise and everything, at some point, money is not a good motivator. No. And the best motivator is belonging to something bigger than yourself in that way.

Mortiz: Absolutely. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, it gives me peace. And I think this transactional mindset, what’s my next payoff, it’s just, I think it’s just, I mean, it’s just, it’s boring.

César: Yeah. For example, this reminds me of example of… Yeah, if you had to choose between a product that is funded by one of the biggest companies, they’re putting a lot of money to create this super big base of knowledge and they’re paying translators, writers, they’re paying everybody a lot of money and these people are working nonstop. Or if you need to bet on another product where people are not paid and they want to develop this base of knowledge because, yeah. Who would you choose?

Mortiz: I mean, it’s not as easy, I think, to say and of course, you know, like it would be expected.

César: It’s a trick question. It’s a trick question.

Mortiz: It would be expected now maybe that I say the one where you don’t get the money, but maybe where you’re interested in. But I still also think that there is a least, like there’s a minimum amount of money I think you need to have to make a living, right? This is just part of it. And if you can’t balance it, you should balance it. You know, like if you can have maybe do a little job for the big firm where you get some bucks. Do then. And then maybe have some time for the little firm where you feel maybe more interested in. I think this would be the most ideal solution if that is a possibility.

César: So these two products were Encarta by Microsoft and Wikipedia. Ah, yeah. Wikipedia now is the one that we… Yeah, yeah, yeah. We know, yeah, Microsoft spent so much money trying to build this in Cclopedia and there’s this person that created a free website and people could just collaborate and contribute and people did it because it was good for everyone else.

Mortiz: Absolutely. But like I also have a different story. So in Germany, we had back in, I think it was the 90s where I also used it a lot. We had something called Dimitvatz and Trahle. So it’s basically a ride sharing platform, like it was a website. You just put in like it was actually like it was financed a bit through ads, but not much. It was not a business. It was just a guy who put up this platform because then, you know, people could put in their rights. So one person has a car, has like three or four empty spots in the car and goes, for example, from Berlin to Frankfurt.

Mortiz: It’s like a four hour, five hour car ride. And through this, he can or she can cover the petrol expense. And that was a beautiful thing because it brought people together. It was more economical. It was more ecological. It was a wonderful idea. And it was just perfect already, like in the 90s and many people were using it at some point, I guess also because they were not that financially successful and maybe it cost too much. But still, they were bought by some investors and eventually they ended up in BlaBlaCar. It’s this French company. And now it’s this business platform, which is like you have to pay stuff. You cannot put in your things as you want them to be. It’s highly, highly restricted and regulated. I’m like, you really made a genuinely great idea really bad by doing it a business. Nobody asked you to. You should not have done this. Okay. Maybe the model before was not so sustainable, but nevertheless, it was a shame. If it’s not sustainable, maybe the state had should get in, maybe provided some funding because it was a general public good. Everyone benefited from this. And now we have this firm extracting some money from it where I’m like, I mean, this is pointless. This is.

César: Yeah, true. I think at some point, money kind of corrupts things. It can.

Mortiz: Yeah, it can.

César: But I also wanted to ask you on going back to your background in political sciences. Have you seen any political dynamics in co-livings that you have studied? What’s your take on this?

Mortiz: Yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting question. I’ve never really thought about this before. I mean, there certainly is, especially I think when you have a new group that then kind of fosters itself. I think there’s certainly a team dynamic where this typical weather, say, storming and forming, where you sometimes maybe get into conflicts or like little things. And then everyone kind of figures out who they are, what they do, who they contribute. Because in the beginning, I think everyone is like, hey, who are you?

Mortiz: And everyone is incredibly open. And then after a while, it kind of settles in. Everyone figures out what their role is.

César: Put each one in little boxes. Yeah, little boxes. Moritz from Germany. This person from here. Oh, they do this, this and that.

Mortiz: And then I guess it’s just like networks build and maybe circles of friends build. And this gives you influence. And sometimes you have a good time at a co-living, I can guess, because you have a nice network. And sometimes maybe it doesn’t work that well because you cannot connect so well. So I think this is surely happening. And but the thing is, I don’t think it’s becoming too political in a co-living because you don’t need to govern yourself. I think it would be different if it’s a co-living where you actually have to do a lot yourself. Or like, it’s more like a shard flat, like a shard flat for 10 people where everyone has to jump in and give money and maybe build things and maintain things. I think then you would have more of these really meetings where you need to make governance decisions.

César: Yeah, and you need to, because now the facilitator or the owner is kind of like a dictatorship. Yeah. It’s an authoritarian government. Absolutely.

Mortiz: Hopefully it will be a benevolent front. Very violent, yeah.

César: But would you see a co-living working where there’s actually like kind of a true democracy or a…

Mortiz: I think it would be interesting to see because sometimes, you know, I mean, also in our times, maybe it’s the way how it needs to be, like, you know, here or 9 co-living. Of course, you have a Katia or Ane who do a great job in running their co-livings. But of course, they own it, you know, it’s their business. So they take all responsibility or most responsibility for it. And of course, sometimes I think this is at the potential expense of people becoming more involved. Hmm. But maybe this is also how it needs to be, because otherwise it’s too complex and too complicated. Because the thing is, I think you couldn’t stay just for one or two months if you wanted to have a fair say in the matter of how things are run, right? I mean, it wouldn’t be possible, it would only be possible if you stayed like in the place for years and then you come in, you probably have some legal contract. But I think it would be definitely something more to explore so people get less into this consumer style of things and more also like in this mindset of contributing. Because you can easily, you know, just lay back, lean back, enjoy the ride into co-living and like, oh, it’s nice. But I think it’s great to contribute, to do something for the community and maybe to sometimes motivate people to do it more would maybe also give a better co-living experience to everyone.

César: Yeah, I understand. I think laying back and for example, Katia is a great host because she takes care of everything, you know, whenever we go out, she pays and she like puts it on split-wise with everyone. That’s a lot of work. Absolutely. And if there’s not a figure like that does this… I feel spoiled here.

Mortiz: I mean, it’s amazing. I love it. But I feel spoiled.

César: Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, because I interviewed Theo, he’s another colleague here and he had a project called Crypto coliving and he wanted people to really be able to vote on things that they care about in the co-living. And I think it’s an interesting take because then you will, if I don’t know, if you were very invested in a pinpoint table, you know, then you will could vote for that and maybe people follow and then, oh, then if you will have the budget, then that’s it.

Mortiz: I think it’s a great idea, but also, you know, what part of how we live together in a society and democracy, it’s usually that we have representative democracy, which basically means, okay, there’s maybe we have 100, like if let’s say there’s a people, 100 people, like a group of 100 people in representative democracy, that means like maybe five to 10 are interested in questions of governance and those decisions. Everyone else is like, I want to eat. I want to go to the beach. I don’t really care about this, just you do all the decisions and I think this is something that you need to do.

César: But once you make them, I will whine and I will blame you. Absolutely.

Mortiz: Because if not, yes, yes, yes. Whining games, I mean, that’s why, you know, I think you cannot expect everyone to be interested in like matters of the community or something.

César: Yeah, absolutely, of course. And thinking about representatives and going back into politics, you are a very pro European Union and I think you also work with other countries or maybe not directly, but sometimes indirectly. So I’m wondering if you’ve seen, is the European Union looking into co-livings or you think they should and maybe they found, what do you think about this?

Mortiz: So I don’t know. Okay, next question. I could maybe check, but I think it’s an interesting topic. My guess would be that they probably don’t look too much into it. Not sure even that this is a topic that the European Union actually looks into because of course, you know, we have our different layered system and not every topic is at the European Union level, but it should definitely be something to be fostered, to be nourished, to be supported. Because I think, you know, as they say, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s probably through all the ages, maybe except, you know, when people like tribes or yeah, yeah.

César: And co-livings is a tribe kind of.

Mortiz: Absolutely. And I think, you know, like especially in Western countries, we have so much prosperity and wealth and we have this narrative that you need to own a house or maybe some have this, you know, it’s like we’re expected of you and then you notice or maybe a large flat and maybe you want to have it by yourself because you’re a bit annoyed by other people. I don’t know, maybe you’re told like in your 30s or your 40s and later definitely not, you’re not allowed to live with other people because it’s considered not being an adult or something. And I think there’s a lot.

César: Unless you’re living with your parents, which in this case maybe.

Mortiz: But I mean, that’s also another thing. Of course, multi-generational is also a nice thing to think about. Why not? I mean, for example, like back home, like my brother came around with his wife and with his first child and my parents were around, I think, and I was sometimes there and it was amazing, you know, it was a built a multi-generational home. And I think we need to think more of how we can stay connected, of course, with our parents, but also generally with other people. And I think this is where definitely the estate actor should provide, make it easy that this happens more because loneliness, I think in many medical studies, you always see that loneliness probably contributes to, you know, heart disease, probably to dementia and so forth. There are so many risk factors associated with loneliness. We should do something about it. But when you look up, like, okay, you want to have a flat, for example, because that’s the usual way, right? I mean, you can have a flat and this is legally all structured in a way there’s one or two people who can be signed into the contract. Like it’s also how flats are designed. It’s usually one room, two rooms, three rooms, four rooms. But this is not a community style. Community style is like more 10 rooms, 12 rooms, 15 rooms.

César: And public and shared space.

Mortiz: Yeah. And this is not…

César: Which also is very much more efficient.

Mortiz: Yeah. Yeah. And this is how things are built, you know, like our society, our capitalist society, you know, they have this large, where everything is assumed to be family units or even smaller for single people. And I think something has gone terribly wrong. I mean, nobody thought about this, I guess. It was all about year efficiency. Let’s have a house where it can stay. I mean, it just makes no sense. You know, like humans have been in existence for so long. And I think that we have now been in this, our, you know, small little kingdoms in our flats or houses. It’s been a relatively new invention. And I think it’s not a great invention. I mean, sometimes it is, of course, you know, I don’t want to be little, for example, other countries or non-Western countries where it’s just not so prosperous. But I think it’s just like our system overshot a bit too much. Like we don’t need that. Like I also heard once this, there was a podcast from the New York Times, I think was the Esra Klein Show. And there was like one thing a person said that I loved. What do you rather live by yourself or, you know, for example, with other people in the co-living? And the person said, yeah, I rather have the problems of living with other people than I have the problems by being by myself. And I very much agree to that, because it’s not that everything is paradise and sunshine. Of course, you know, in the co-living, you have also sometimes maybe you don’t want to mingle, maybe you don’t like some people, maybe you cannot cook as you want because you don’t have the appliances you could have when you would be by yourself.

César: Well, the thing with the appliances, I think in a co-living is especially a place where you have almost everything. It’s just because it optimizes, I think to me, it’s painful that about the idea of everyone having their own set of pots, cutlery, it’s just such a waste of materials and space.

Mortiz: Yeah, that’s a really another fair point.

César: Also, like I love tools. I love like woodworking and these things. And yeah, I have my own set of tools, but my friend, we kind of he lives in the same community, in the same building. And we say, oh, you buy this and I buy this and we share. Imagine if there was places where like you could actually go and grant or take tools that are shared because you don’t use them that often.

César: And the same could be applied to many things while having your privacy of your place. But I really like common areas in communities. I think it’s just a great opportunity for you to meet people that share interests, do activities. Yeah. So yeah, I would love to see from an architectural standpoint to see these being more promoted and maybe the European Union.

Mortiz: I think it’s architecture, but it’s also the legal constructs that we need to allow this more to happen more easily. Also, like, you know, I remember that some friends, they were looking into buying a property together, I think was like maybe five or six of them. It was just, it was too hard to find a contract that could balance it out. Also the governance when you, like in the future, how you do it, like how people exit and enter. It’s just, there’s a lot to do. And well, I hope that there’s more change coming.

César: Yeah, of course. I wanted to, I asked everyone in the podcast, what does colliding mean to you?

Mortiz: I mean, I think the one word that always strikes me is connection. Bluetooth or Wi-Fi? Yeah, I think it’s wire. It’s the fastest. No, I think this is just connection. And for me, it’s always like really a peace of mind, like being in community, like that other people out there that are listening to me, maybe have to listen to me, right? I mean, they have no choice.

César: They have no choice.

Mortiz: Yeah, which is good. But I mean, I love that. Also, like, I mean, it’s a bit, it’s a bit weird, but really like it also gives me peace just to know, I’m in a house, I can sleep there and there’s other people around. It just, you know, it warms my soul. And I think then, you know, to basically do things together and not everything is on my burden to have a social calendar, but actually do to get other people’s opinion and life view and interest. And you collaborate and you build it. And it’s not planned. I didn’t plan it. So that’s what I appreciate very much that it’s not my idea who the people are here that come. I’m just presented with them and I have to get along and try to make the best out of it. And I always take so much away, like how other people are, you know, I don’t stay in my usual circle of friends, which is of course also nice, but it’s very enriching to have new people come.

César: Yeah, I think getting out of your comfort zone to meet, it’s a must. I think when, yeah, of course, it feels nice to meet your old friends and go for a beer. But I feel like here, just things just happen. And there’s not as much friction, for example, when you want to try new things. Or we had a little skill share yesterday about book writing. And it’s lovely because we have a book author here. Yeah. And she was telling us everything about book writing, her process and when do you get the chance to have these conversations or meet with people. Yesterday at the Barbecue, I was not working with one of the colivers and it’s like, wow, okay, maybe something happens, maybe it doesn’t, but it’s just so good that there’s opportunity all around you. And it’s just a matter of going and taking it.

César: So yeah, I think connection maybe has to do with that. Yeah. Okay, Moritz, it has been a pleasure.

Mortiz: Yeah, it’s been a pleasure for me as well. Thank you for inviting me.

César: No worries. And yeah, this has been another episode of Colivers Club powered by MapMelon. Bye. Ciao.